Hi All and thank you for the feedback in the Property Development Forum. I thought I would update the project here rather than in the actual topic forums.
To date the reno is coming along nicely and nothing out of the ordinary. The support beams go in this week and the walls come down opening up the living areas.
The important learning points:
- Went to hand in my Development Application for the subdivision (DA) today with council for the subdivision to only find out it takes about 6-12 weeks for the Property Title to transfer into my name. This is a small setback as the owner is required to sign the DA. Even though I now own the property, the council cannot confirm this without title. No dramas, i will liaise with the sellers solicitor and get a letter of approval. The learning outcome here for everyone is if you plan to submit a DA straight after buying a property, have the seller sign your DA prior to or at settlement to avoid this delay.
Another great pick up this week was storm water flow and were does it come from. We have had heaps of rain in this area. I was out at the block during the rain and I noticed that considerable water was coming from the block on the high side. This block is about the same size (3000sqm) and it is completely concrete or roadbase, so a lot of water was flowing from this block onto mine. Interesting this block belongs to the local Council. So I have taken heaps of pictures of the water flow and when Council need me to resolve water flow issues as part of the DA, I will seek their financial support to do it noting the water is coming from their block.
Hopefully I will have the DA by the end of the week.
Hi Dean
Many thanks for the update and great to learn the details of what is involved in a development (including all the wrangles with paperwork and councils that we all love!). From your first post, you said that the project is about an hour from Canberra? One thing I am interested in is if you and your significant other work full time and if so, how you are managing the development from a distance and while you work full time??
One thing that I am finding a little daunting is managing a renovation (let alone a development!) from a distance, while working full time...
Keen to hear comments on this...
If I could also hijack this post, could I ask if you use an accountant and solicitor in Canberra, and if so who?? (If you would prefer not to respond to this online, I'm more than fine with that). I am looking to build my new team in Canberra.
Cheers,
Hey Chris,
Apologies for taking so long to reply (6 weeks, that is really poor of me). No excuses.
I do work full time, but I have significant flexibility at work that allows me to get away 1 day a fortnight to meet builders and contractors. Sometimes I even leave early on the alternate week and make my meetings with the tradesman at 4 pm on their way home.
My first three reno's were down in Wagga (2.5 hours from Canberra). I took 4 weeks holidays to get all that set up and the rest of it was on the phone or weekends. My partner and I have made the commitment that weekends can be sacraficed in the short term for the long term gain of buying back time.
The one thing I am noticing is that the project moves slower because I do not work on it every day. However, this was expected and so my renovation time has fat in the schedule due to waiting on council approval for the DA.
I am happy to provide details of my solicitor and accountant, but I would qualify the information depending on what your needs are. please drop me a line at dmacpusser@optusnet.com.au and I can fill in the information for you.
Also, look up the Canberra Property Meeting post by Claire and maybe we can catch up at the next Canberra meeting. I missed the last one unfortunately as I was, of all things, at a Property Options seminar in Queensland.
Dean
G'day All,
Quick update. Cant believe it has been 6 weeks since I posted my development info.
I have submitted the DA (26 June) and I have been asked for more info from council. A big ticket item for NSW councils is a Statement of Environmental Effect. You can google search and find the relevant information, but interesting each council is different in their approach. My council had no guidelines on it so I choose another council info to use as a template. What I found interesting was that the list of items to be included in the SEE is really up to the Developer?? Go Figure. I asked the council what he wanted to included and the response was, we just want to see that you have considered the effects.
I covered off items such as Asbestos removal, Trees, Vegetation (including replacement vegetation), cultural impacts, Localised impacts (more residents means more rates :)_)
Another significant lessons I have learned is to have the exit strategy planned out (with alternate options) very early. If I could go back and start again I would pay for a longer settlement period (say 4 months instead of 6 weeks).
Why? I hear you ask.....
During this 4 months I could have got the DA approved, had the land valued on completion (which I have just got back in) and got all the quotes etc for the renovation and had the reno job valued as on completion as well. this would allow me to get an ón completion' valuation from the banks valuer. This is one of the most valuable things to have when doing a Development.
Traditionally (and the way I did it), is purchased a site, got finance to buy the site and then fund the Reno and DA process. This is Dumb!
A far better way to have approached this deal would have been to negotiate more time in the settlement (actually i tried to do it under option, but that is a different story). With a 4 months settlement as stated above I could have achieved an on completion valuation. I take the on completion valuation and approved DA from council to the bank and say hey - I have this site which will be valued by your valuer at this price on completion - please lend me XX% (lets say 80%) to buy the site and get the work done.
By having an approved DA, I have already forced value into the site which I can use as soft equity to cover costs. I have also reduced risk as I know that the site will be ok to subdivide and if done quickly enough within the 4 months, I could have even started pre sales on the subdivsion.
Lets have a quick look at the numbers - These are live actual numbers that I used in the feaso.
Traditional way (and the current method I used)
Purchase was $310.000 and I borrowed 95% ($294,000)
Purchases Costs (Stamps, Legals, LMI) - $17,000
Renovations - $30,000 (pretty much on budget)
Holding Costs (4 Months) - $6,000 (I would save this if I had a 4 month settlement period)
DA Cost (Consultants: Surveyor, Water Engineer, Town Planner and DA submission cost) - $6,500
Selling Agent fees - $9,500 (payable on sale so not used in cash calculation)
Total Cost - About $380,000
So to Buy this site, renovate it and apply for a subdivision DA - The Bank gave me $294,000 and I will chip in the cash of about $70,000.
The plan is to sell the house and keep the land and then use the value of the land to do the subdivision. Costs as follows:
Development Cost
Council Contributions - $67,000
Civial Works - $15,000
Lanscaping - $23,000
Contingency - $15,000
All up - $120,000.
I estimated the land of each lot to come in at $130,000 each. It came in recently at $125,000 each so I was happy (and relieved). this will provide the funding to do the development PROVIDED THE COUNCIL SAYS YES! (which they have verbally by the way)
this is the traditional approach. Look carefully - I have chipped in $70,000 and the risk is the council may say no. Each lot at $125,000 will mean didlly squat to the bank if the council says no.
A smarter way - Time is greater than money.
If I had offered say $10,000 more for 4 months settlement and as outlined above got the DA approved, Valuations done on an On Completion value and then got funding from the Bank based on the new data how would this have been different. (For this scenario i will assume that the renovation work will have the new residence valued at $350,000. This is conservative as I am expecting closer to $375,000, but I will use the lower amount in this case.)
The On Completion project value is - $350,000 (house) + $375,000 (3 lots out back) = $725,000. This is approved by council and valued by the bank.
Ms Bank Manager can I please have a devleopment loan of 80% LVR for this site please = $580,000. this means I could corrow up to $580,000 to do the work. I would also save on the LMI (which was $9,500 - which would have been the increased offer).
Purchase - $320,000
Purchase Cost (No LMI this time) - $7,000
Renovation - $30,000
Holding - NIL for the first 4 months.
DA Cost - $6500
Selling Fees - $9500
Development Cost
Council Contributions - $67,000
Civial Works - $15,000
Lanscaping - $23,000
Contingency - $15,000
Total cost - $493,000 ($87,000 under my working limit) Even at a 70% LVR I could have borrowed $543,750
By approaching the deal this way, I could have used the soft equity created to to cover all the cost. i would have no out of pocket expenses and if I could have reduced the deposit requirement down to 1%, my total cash outlay would have been minimal (DA submission, consultants and some legals).
I hope this makes sense to people, especially if you are considering a development deal. Time is a better asset than reducing the cost of the site. Themore time you buy, the more chance you have to drive value into the site buy getting the DA approved before you settle.
Finally what would have happened on this case if the DA did not get approved? Walk away from the deal. Make sure it is part of your Due Diligence clause or finance clause that if you dont get a DA then you don't buy. Total cost would have been a few thousand dollars in DA and consultants, but at least you still have your capital to go again.
I hope this has been useful.
I look forward to the next update which will be when the reno is finished and the house goes back to market.
Happy investing
Dean
Enjoyed the read. Look forward to the next update :)
Chloe
FF 22/2/19
Hi Dean
Thanks for the detailed breakdown of the costs, issues and your thinking processes!
On a side note, have you done any renos during an extended settlement period?? I read recently about issues between the buyer and seller over what could be done during the settlement period (seller thought the buyer was doing one thing, buyer was doing a whole lot more) and it wasn't looking pretty....
Hi Chris,
Yes, I try and do all my renos within the settlement period as much as possible.
You must have approval to work inside a settlement period - easy make it a term of the sale conditions.
Generally, cosmetic items will be allowed I have found without to much issue. The vendors I have come across will not allow any significant work (kitchen or bathroom rip out, or the removal of walls), simply because if you cannot proceed then the vendor is left with the repair bill.
When I had finance approved on one place I did start the demo work a few days before settlement. I knew the risks but I also knew I had the money to settle. As it was a Government auction, I knew the NSW Government was always going to settle so I took the risk and started early.
I have been caught out though. I was doing a renovation and I had approval and finance ready to go. I book in tradesman the following week after settlement. Unfortunately the vendors did not get security release from their bank to release the property so settlement did not proceed. I however, did not inform the tradies and they commenced work the following week until I stopped them.
The vendors found out and tried to charge me early occupation fees. I reminded them that they are the ones delaying settlement not me and if they would rather I send them a notice to complete to their solicitor (including fees) then I suggest they we over look the fact the tradesman did 1 days work to early.
It got a bit messy but we sorted it out in the end. Settlement ended up being 8 weeks delayed by the vendor which worked in my favor as it allowed all the trades to finish off another project I had them on anyway.
Dean
Thanks for sharing in such detail. It's helpful to get some insight as to how others are dealing with their investments!
Alwyn
Hi Dean,
I loved reading your posts, lots of great information and helpful thoughts about doing it better next time.
thanks for sharing.
I have done all of my constructions at a distance (nothing closer than 4.5 hours away) without a problem, however I haven't done a renovation yet, and cant imagine doing one away from home.
A split and construct 2 houses I did in West Wyalong was done never going there during the process. In fact I didn't see the finished product until after it was sold. I did have a trusted builder, he sent me photos and we talked on the phone each week and also had "eyes" on the ground who let me know what was going on.
Dealing with people in the country is such a "breath of fresh air". I never met my surveyor (he was referred) face to face until a couple of years later, he didn't even ask for a deposit and did all the work up front and charged what he quoted 12 months later when the titles were changed.
at the moment I am holding a vacant block of land that needs to have something done with it.
Currently negotiating with the bank over how it will be valued :-( It seems that the valuer will not value the services, and driveway etc as part of it, the bank will only lend based on the cost of the house itself and nothing else. My argument is how can you have a house without services and a driveway etc!! I have figured out a workaround, so we will see how it goes.
After researching having my builder build the already DA/CC approved house on it, having him build a clad kit home on it, moving an old house there, transporting a secondhand transportable there, I finally settled on a new transportable.
It seems there is a hot market for second hand transportable's that they are almost as expensive as new ones. I also learned that insurance on the secondhand ones can be an issue.
Councils aren't keen on old homes with asbestos being transported into their area, so the freebies going begging in Sydney are out :-(.
The cost of new construct didn't stack up for the rent if I had to hold it.
Thinking I will either sell as a rent to own or do a vendor carry back on it. planning to run some test marketing in the next few weeks.
cheers
Michelle
To Your Prosperity
Michelle
blog: www.michellethemoneycoach.com
eBook: http://financialfreedomonyourcurrentincome.com
Hey Apprentices:
Met with council yesterday to seek a way forward on the final details of the Development Approval. It is now about 12 or so weeks since it was submitted. I have achieved Heritage sign off and most of the outstanding items now relate to slight differences between the Water Engineers Report (required for the Sydney Catchment Authority) and the Survetors drawings. These were slightly different in terms of design etc.
The key learning point here for any potential developer is to make sure all your documentation is the same. If one engineer changes something, then you need to go to all your drawings and change it. Not a big issue but a learning outcome none the less.
The other key stumbling block (and this has not gone away since my first post in June) is the issue of water flow. A couple of key points I have learnt this week that I wish to share.
1. You (the land owner) are responsible for the water on your land. You need a plan to have the water discharge into an appropriate system (normally the town storm water). If you need to flow water through someone elses land - you will need to obtain an easement over that persons land to allow pipe work to be laid to solve the problem. This easement gets place onto the title of the land. It also means that that little piece of land can no longer have permanent construction on it (plenty of different rules here and each council has there own - but the principle is - if there is an easement it needs to be able to be accessed for repairs).
2. In my scenerio there was already piepwork in place on the adjoining land that had been put in about 30 years ago to deal with the water flow issue. I initially thought that this would be easy to solve as the pipes were already there. This was the main purpose of the meeting with council this week. it turns out:
a. The pipes are not the right type of pipe and therefore would need to be replaced. Ok I can do that (subject to the land owners consent),
b. The easement would need to be formalised and deposited with the Lands Title Office. Simple enough and a small cost.
c. The land owner has a shed that sits inside the 2.5 m easement that would need to be moved. This would be at my cost and now makes the issue a little more difficult to sell to the land owner.
d. the new pipe would be larger and would require a stom water pit to be created to allow the water to flow into rather than having the water flow straight onto the street (which is the current arrangement).
e. The connecting storm water pit is about 100m away and I would need to dig up the road and connect the two pits (current one and the new one created) to discharge the water. (Massive cost)
The alternate approach is to raise the level of the land to allow enough slop to flow the water down along my boundary and out into the current drainage system. Currently working the enigeers and surveyors to work this out.
the key learning point is make sure your block slopes towards the services you need. Water flow is a massive issue and if your block is the wrong way, you could be up for significant engineering works to make the water flow the way you want it. Know where the serve connections are and know where all your drainange and sewage pits are not only on your block but around you as well.
Until next time, happy investing.
Dean
Excellent post Dean and thanks for sharing that information!
Hi Dean
I just let a property go for that reason above...the sloping block meant site works alone would have cost $80k and I had only factored in $25k on my initial feasibility. Thanks for another detailed post!
Cheers
Chloe
FF 22/2/19
Happy New year Apprentices :)
Great news, just prior to Christmas, I finally received Development Approval to subdivide - woot.
The DA had 82 conditions which I am now working through. My approach is to work out what I need to do for Stage 1 first and then what can be done later in Stage 2.
Next step in the plan is to meet with the Surveyor who will guide me through this process. I also need to meet with the bank Manager, because the bank is not going to let me suddenly cut up its security, so i need to gain approval from the lender to subdivide the block so I can sell off stage 1 on its own title.
We have also finished the renovations on stage 1, so this is great timing. Rachel has done a splendid job on staging and styling the home and it is looking a real treat.
I will post some more as we progress with the surveyor, council and the bank on the process.
Safe Holidays
Dean
well done mate up and up in the new year!
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
WOO HOO - I finally received funding approval to go ahead with the project!
What a slow grind that was. It has been nearly 10 months since I submitted the DA. The renovations are complete and the house has been sitting waiting to move forward so I can look to go to pre-sale.
I have the civil engineers, electrical engineers all ready to go. I am hoping we can start digging some trenches by the end of May (just in time for Winter).
For anyone interested you can view photos of the completed renovation project here:
http://www.allpropertystyling.com.au/braidwood/
In terms of the funding arrangements we put in place:
I used the increased equity of the property to cover the funding. I purchased the site for $310k and after I received DA I had the site revalued. It came back (including the completed renov value) of $675k. This was an increase of $365k.
I submitted all the invoices, fees, projections etc for the development (which is a 2 stage subdivision). The application for Stage 1 cam in at $150,000 which includes contingency and capitalised interest for both the current mortgage and the development loan. This is a great outcome for me as it means I no longer have to pay a mortgage on the current asset holding whilst we are doing the development and this will help short term cash flow.
Once the subdivision is completed we will sell the renovated home and pay off the development loan and reduce the mortgage before proceeding into stage 2 - which I am still working on the best outcome.
I will keep you posted on the civil's progress and any lessons learned through the process.
Happy investing
Dean
HI Dean
Love the staging and renovation job. I am currently doing something similar to you - but it's taking me even longer!
Your reval is HUGE. You must have been happy with that. Great job and keep going. Loving reading about your journey.
PS, are you doing the B2BFF course??
Chloe
FF 22/2/19
Hi Dean
thanks for sharing your journey, just love it when a plan comes together.
Congratulations on beautiful job.
cant wait to hear the next stage.
To Your Prosperity
Michelle
blog: www.michellethemoneycoach.com
eBook: http://financialfreedomonyourcurrentincome.com
Happy Winter everyone,
Learnt a big lesson this week - The difference between a Civil engineering company and a civil construction company.
I had engaged a civil construction company to do all the .... well.... civil constructions. One thing I did not realise, was that before civil construction guys can do work, they need civil engineering plans. I assumed that these plans where done in house with the company I went for, but alas, I found out this week they don't.
Thankfully, I was referred to a civil engineering firm that has done plenty of work with the council and so I have passed all this information onto them so I can now find out what is involved in getting the appropriate plans drawn up and submitted to Council for approval to commence work. So much for starting by the end of May!
The other thing I have learnt is that there is more to developing than just the DA (Development Approval). In short the DA is just an approved idea by council that fits with the Development Controls for the area. It is simply - Yep, we approve your idea and here are all the conditions to make it happen (and fees!).
The next step, which I am finding out more and more about - is I now need to get approval from council to actually do the work. This is where the civil engineers come in (and I missed them). The civil engineers take all the council approvals, the survey drawings, etc and development all the civil engineering plans on how it is all going to come together. This entire engineering pack is submitted to Council as part of the Notification to Commence and Approval to Comence work.
Once these all get approved and council sign off on all the plans, only then can I engage the civil construction guys and start digging. Oh the frustration!
I guess the real Property developer work starts now as I did not factor the plans into the budget, thinking it would be done by the construction guys and was part of their fee. I have already suffered budget issues and schedule issues and the work has not even started yet. I am actually laughing at the irony of this while typing.
Finally, I have made the decision to no longer proceed with a 4 lot subdivision, but go straight through to a 6 town house construction on the Large lot at the rear once the current house is sub divided. This will be back to Council with another DA application.
I will post again once I get word back from the civil engineering company and the time, money and effort involved in getting plans drawn up council.
Dean
hi all
I have launched in to a 4 unit development also. I have found from trying to price out potential developments, if the average 9-5 working person can do them, then there is no or little profit in it, such as a basic reno or may be 1 unit sub division . so we are getting our teeth in to a 4 unit development in Bendigo. Bendigo is growing due to a $630mill hospital being built which comes on line in 2016. Plus my older brother is a registered carpenter, lives in Bendigo so I have an insider view on Bendigo. I have put up a wall sized map of Bendigo and have been tracking sales data for the past 3 months, so I know what is selling for what price and in what pockets and I have access to a few valuation sites being a mortgage broker
the site is 1159 sq mtres. as far as I can work out the profit margin is anything from 15-18% depending if I have factored in everything, although I have allowed for contingencies seeing I am green at this.
we have bought on 90 day terms, set up the company as trustee and also the trust. I am a mortgage broker so I have the inside word on finance and work closely with my accountant. I have worked through getting familar with the Margin scheme when dealing with GST payable seeing that our intent is to develop and sell. Most lenders will consider a 4 unit development as commerical which means rates, fees are higher and potential pre sale requirements however there are a couple that will look on this on a case by case basis on a residential basis and I have had an indicative approval in the residential space which is what I want for our first development. Happy to go commerical once we have rolled through our first and learned our lessons and made a profit. trouble with 4 units on one title and subdividing at the end is the valuation will come in low initially, as it will be valued as 4 dwelling on one title. but once we complete and get the seperate titles, then we can expect an increase. we will attempt to sell off the plan, via doing some modelling and big signage on the block, as well as pricing these at the bottom end. Hoping that the grant changes will push clients to the newly built property purchase and being a broker, I can work backwards and work out what min contributions a purchaser needs to contribute to purchase. the area we are doing this development is an older lower class area so are going to keep the build basic
currently we have a couple of draftsman quoting for the work to prepare the drawings and are doing soil tests. we approached local council before we bought to get a rough idea of what they would approve. there are no troubling easements on the block which is good. I got chatting to the neighbour of the purchased property and he has requested we buy his backyard. this will push it up to a 6 or 7 unit development but I believe we could do this in stages because it is a seperate title. But this might be a little big for first go at it. We understand that the first one will be a bit of an education. I have financed clients up to 7 units and have been itching to get my teeth into some developing, which I can do now as my kids a little older being 2 and 4.
will keep posting
all the best out there
regards Adam
Hey Adam
Thanks so much for sharing your journey and details on what you're doing. It sounds very similar to us although we're in Perth so it was exciting to read! Interesting what you said about the valuation being lower at present as its seen as 4 dwellings on one title - our bank is prepared to look at the final value based on the four dwellings prior to separate titles being issued, or alternatively the rental income we would generate.
I'm also interested in your structure - Dean made some great comments about his set up and we are wondering if we've done the right thing. Our current development (and our 2nd one) was purchased under our partnership, which our tax accountant set up with an ABN, but our 3rd development site was purchased under our company which is trustee for our trust. How do you intend to claim tax and GST doing your development through your trust? We are submitting BAS now but Dean had a great plan where his company is paid from the profits instead of distributing to him and paying higher tax. Our bank have also told us we must have an ACN in order to borrow as we will also be in commercial lending - have you experienced this?
Do you go to the B2BFF meetings? If so would be great to catch up tomorrow!
Cheers
Carolyn
Hi Carolyn
not sure what the B2BFF meetings are?
in my understanding in the residential lending space as opposed to commerical lending- residential lending (depending on the municipality) you generally cant subdivide up front - in that you cant subdivide before completing the building, so in my experience the lender will look at it and value it at time of loan application as a 4 unit on one title development, based on the assumption that the subdivision is never completed. Banks dont like losing control so will usually base the lending on the biggest risk position -being 4 units on one title, because if they have to sell you up, who wants to buy 4 units on one title, not too many people. so when the valuer goes out they will put a lower value on 4 units on 1 title, as opposed to 4 units on 4 seperate titles. so some people hit a wall, because when the lower valuation comes in, they breach max loan to value ratio imposed by the lender. even though once the sub division comes through then the higher valuation is available. so having some spare equity is handy. I dont believe this matters so much in the commercial space. I must say i have seen valuers not even question that its going to be subdivided and value the property in its subdivided state. I guess it comes down to the valuer and the assessor to see if they pick up on it or not.
in regards to structure - we have set up the non trading company as corporate trustee for the blah blah discretionary trust - which the Trust( is reg for GST, have a look into GST margin scheme applicable for property development). and any profit made in the trust we can distibute it to the family member who is earning the least to minimise the tax payable on any profit, or if we are all above the 30% tax bracket distribute the profit into a company so we dont pay any more that 30%.
we have three directors of the non trading corporate trustee company , reason being, two off us has the income required to service the debt and the other director has a large equity position, so we can use this directors property as additional security so the whole potential low valuation issue is not on the scene.
Hope the above helps - as I said I am green at developing so its a learning experience all the way through - but gee its exciting!
regards
Thanks so much Adam! B2BFF is just Born to Be Financially Free - the bi monthly meetings Steve set up for this course, there's only 2 left now i just wondered if you were one of the people there :)
Looking forward to speaking with our accountant about your info as we have the corporate trustee for our trust already set up, so perhaps this would help!
Much appreciated, and all the very best with your development!
Cheers
Carolyn
Great Post Adam and thanks for contributing to the development thread.
Couple of comments - The Bank will value what is approved in the DA. If you state in your DA that your intention is to develop and strata the units (you subdivide land - you strata title units), then the bank will recognise that approach as individual units each on their own title. Further more with the DA in place for strat units, you will be able to proceed to pre-sale as you have DA to do so. If you only got a DA to build without strata titling you would be in difficulty securing pre-sales. In fact I believe you would only be able to seek Expressions of Interest because you have no Council approval to strata. Better to be up front with the original application.
In terms of the neighbours backyard, I would recommend you get this secured under option with the owner right now for a 24 month period. You could even ask him to consider throwing in the back yard for free in exchange for a unit that you build on the increased size. This reduces cash flow equity issues, increases land size for DCP and LEP considerations as wlso gives you an instant pre-sale for the bank. The best way to do this would be under a option arrangement as it gives you the flexibility to get council approvals in place and funding sorted before you have to commit to the owner. In fact I would never buy a development site any other way.
In terms of structure, I find having a Corporate Trustee own the land and a Project Management Company undertake the work works for me as it allows me to reduce the money flowing through the trust and shift accross into the company at 30% and it can be retained there for growth. This works in my case, but an experienced property focused accountant would be able to provide advice. My recommendation is to seek an accountant that has property developers on their books only. No good getting equity (shares) advice when we need development structures.
Good luck with the construction. I think you may be light on in terms of ROI. I would not touch anything less than 30%, but hopefully with the family knowledge and builder expertise you can keep costs down.
Keep us up to date on how you go.
Dean